What do you hate about church?

Vida May said:
If you are a citizen of a democracy you hold a serious responsibility to learn, develop good judgment, and the ability to judge what is true and what is not, and participate politically for the good of all. However, it requires education to understand this and be prepared for it. When education for technology replaced liberal education and we left moral training to the church, we stopped preparing our young to be good citizens and now we have culture wars instead of a united and strong nation. I have a big problem with this!
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Big problem? My point was just that, like it not, religion was always a central element in the ancient roots of human civilization, whether it be that of ancient Greece, Hinduism or Buddhism, to name a few. If technology and/or varying concepts of citizenry sprang from our ancient roots, so be it. Humanity evolves.
 

Religion, politics, and certainly s*x were never discussed openly in my parent’s household. My mother would, however, go to church around Xmas and Easter so she could be sanctimonious about it. Where politics was concerned, my parents would vote for any Republican who came along. S*x was so avoided that I might have assumed that I was conceived by immaculate conception, although my classmates gradually educated me. I never looked at my parents the same way after sorting that out… 🙄

The gospel clearly understood in my household was that if Mother wasn’t happy, no one would be happy! 😸

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if you have a church that is open and still functioning then you are lucky - they provide various services to the community from worship of a greater good to helping their own community with various services - support of the poor ; sometimes accomodation ; cheap or free food - they are part of their community and often reach out to it in times of need or not need!!
 
ElCastor said:
Big problem? My point was just that, like it not, religion was always a central element in the ancient roots of human civilization, whether it be that of ancient Greece, Hinduism or Buddhism, to name a few. If technology and/or varying concepts of citizenry sprang from our ancient roots, so be it. Humanity evolves.
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I am sorry. I thought I understood your meaning, until the last two words. "Humanity evolves".

Science rules today, not religion. It blows me away that so many people can think their mythological beliefs are rational and adequate for today's reality. Those mythologies are not appropriate for democracy and our high-tech reality, and the US is in big trouble because around 1958 it left moral training to the Church. That means the masses have not been prepared for democracy and making good moral judgments for today's reality. What does "Humanity evolves" mean to you?

There is an improvement in more people believing global warming is causing severe weather. They still don't care enough to get serious about stopping it. Today, believing in religion instead of science threatens the whole world. That is not a good evolution.
 
davey said:
if you have a church that is open and still functioning then you are lucky - they provide various services to the community from worship of a greater good to helping their own community with various services - support of the poor ; sometimes accomodation ; cheap or free food - they are part of their community and often reach out to it in times of need or not need!!
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I am not Christian. I have volunteered most of my life. I was an advocate for the homeless when Reagan was in office and my sister and a granddaughter are very involved in helping the homeless. People are naturally compassionate and in the past, all needs were met by people who learned to care for others through public education without religion. A lot of us are Democrats because we care about liberty and justice for all and the education for that.

It frustrates me that so many people rely on religion instead of good judgment. Giving the homeless a handout today, but not the land and housing that is needed today is being stupid! The demand for low-income housing and especially housing for the elderly will increase and we are behind in meeting the need and will get further and further behind. Excuse me, but religion is not doing a good job of planning for tomorrow.

Then there is the belief that because I am not a Christian, I am not doing the wonderful things good Christians do. If we think about it, some might see how offensive that is? It is not just what is believed about God that is objectionable. It is what is believed about humanity that is objectionable.

To clarify, good city planning means setting land aside for the increasing need for low-income housing.
 
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oscash said:
My father used to say "There are 3 things that will start an argument", "Kick a man's dog, talk politics or argue about religion"
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That is so true and I did not talk about religion until Bush Jr. and Cheney, (Neocons) wrongfully invaded Iraq, and Billy Graham did a TV Christmas show saying God wants us to send our sons and daughters into that war.

Since then the need to challenge Christian beliefs has skyrocketed with a pandemic and a refusal to accept science. Then global warming and a refusal to accept science.

I am sorry but in today's world we need to know history and that religion has a very bad record when in comes to our health, the earth's health, wars, and human diversity.
 
davey said:
Couldn't disagree with any of that you have stated - and it should be commended by any christian or christain group??
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A democracy means educating everyone because we all have civic duties. And because we work together much better when we share a notion of truth and we have good moral judgment.

Please, please, please, my thread about "preparing the will" has been ignored. I did not mean our last will. I meant our everyday will. The will to do the right thing and liberty that is, exercising our judgment to do the right thing. NOT FREEDOM TO DO OR SAY ANYTHING WE WANT. Today we can't even talk about preparing the will because we no longer think those terms. When we left moral training to the church, we ended the conversations that were once possible and deemed important.

People today believe morals mean the church, not a matter of cause and effect. Education for technology has left us unprepared for democracy and liberty and this pushes me to say we have a serious problem. The Renaissance reawakened our knowledge of ancient Greek city/states and Rome and the rebirth in Itally gave us back an understanding of democracy.

Only in a new land was it possible to end the kingdoms that were constantly warring with each other. No one saw democracy in the Bible until there was literacy in the classics. The philosophy of the past lead to science and the end of evils. We now name our children at birth, because we expect them to live. GOD did not do that for us. SCIENCE did. Christians want to believe something is wrong with me because a deified man has not saved me?

"Be wear of those pagans and healtens that threaten God's flock." And I would shake the minister's hand as I walk out the door and say I am one of those pagans. Our churches have pitted us against each other and take us to war and we shouldn't talk about religion?

Those ministers who want us to come to their churches need to stop using us to make their flocks believe they and they alone will protect the world against evil. While they sit in the Church defying science and authority when a pandemic is spreading and sending their sons and daughters into unjust wars.
 
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Fyrefox said:
Religion, politics, and certainly s*x were never discussed openly in my parent’s household. My mother would, however, go to church around Xmas and Easter so she could be sanctimonious about it. Where politics was concerned, my parents would vote for any Republican who came along. S*x was so avoided that I might have assumed that I was conceived by immaculate conception, although my classmates gradually educated me. I never looked at my parents the same way after sorting that out… 🙄

The gospel clearly understood in my household was that if Mother wasn’t happy, no one would be happy! 😸

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Yeap, I hate to say it but an unhappy woman is not good for a family. Neither is a miserable man and that often is why the mother isn't a whole of fun.
 
Vida May said:
I am not Christian. I have volunteered most of my life. I was an advocate for the homeless when Reagan was in office and my sister and a granddaughter are very involved in helping the homeless. People are naturally compassionate and in the past, all needs were met by people who learned to care for others through public education without religion. A lot of us are Democrats because we care about liberty and justice for all and the education for that.

It frustrates me that so many people rely on religion instead of good judgment. Giving the homeless a handout today, but not the land and housing that is needed today is being stupid! The demand for low-income housing and especially housing for the elderly will increase and we are behind in meeting the need and will get further and further behind. Excuse me, but religion is not doing a good job of planning for tomorrow.

Then there is the belief that because I am not a Christian, I am not doing the wonderful things good Christians do. If we think about it, some might see how offensive that is? It is not just what is believed about God that is objectionable. It is what is believed about humanity that is objectionable.

To clarify, good city planning means setting land aside for the increasing need for low-income housing.
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it has never been seen as the churchs responsibility to provide house and land for people to live on??
 
I can't say I hate church, I just don't feel that way about it. When Covid was running rampant in our community it was just as risky to gather in church as any other gathering of close quarters. We adopted the practice then of viewing the Sunday services online. We still contribute our offering as in the past, we just mail it in. I don't want to enter a discussion of Covid and all its issues, but we were confronted with persons who not willing to use any precautions. With my wife's compromised health I just felt it was better to err on the side of caution.

I don't care for TV evangelists so I don't tune in. Our remote works we don't have to hear and see what we don't wish to participate in. Kind of like a gossip, I just tell them I don't wish to be a part of the conversation, mainly because I don't want to be listed as a participant just because I was within shouting distance.
 
davey said:
it has never been seen as the churchs responsibility to provide house and land for people to live on??
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Well I am a Christian, but I entirely agree that many persons don't show good judgement. My father once told me that other than a pure accident, most of the bad things we encounter are related to bad decisions we made. I'm 75 now and I think his words are valid even today. I guess that is why I have encouraged our children to think for themselves. I feel like we have assured them of a good home and education. I just want them to make good decisions and not jump off cliffs because someone else did.
 
Vida May said:
What does "Humanity evolves" mean to you?
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How could we compare the humanity of 1824 with that of 2024. The differences are far greater than merely religious. Religion may have had considerable impact on the early structure of humanity, but as time goes on religion may, or in some cases may not, greatly decline in influence.
 
I believe strongly in something that we cannot explain. That “unexplainable” has been transformed into several religions. I also believe that we are made of stardust, and will eventually become again stardust. Those two aspects are not necessarily contradictory.

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church (mostly Jesuits) burned half a million “witches” alive. As Goethe pointed out, “Der schrecklichste aller Schrecken, ist der Mensch in seinem Wahn” (The most terrible of all horrors is man in his madness.) And then think of the 30 years of religious warfare in Europe that established the protestant churches. “Religion” has definitely some ugly aspects to it.

My wife strongly follows the Catholic Church, and I respect it. In fact, we took a number of religious trips to please her, that included Lourdes, Fatima, and Rome where we participated in the general audiences of Pope John Paul in 1990, Pope Benedict in 2010, and Pope Francis in 2016.

During a peaceful period, we travelled to the Holy Land in 1998. One week by rental car all over, and one week in Jerusalem. At the place where Jesus died, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, I as a Lutheran joined my wife in a Catholic Holy Mass because no Lutheran service existed. I am not really religious. Perhaps I am a Christian in name only because it's my heritage. But I am not anti-church. It has its place.

In my view, you have to be objective and keep everything in perspective (and certainly don’t get emotional about the rights and wrongs of the church.) Religious beliefs are a personal choice. Please be tolerant and respect each other's choice.

@davey in Ozzieland below: I have three Boxer dogs and used to have four. I am the leader of that pack. Please look at my avatar.
 
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ElCastor said:
How could we compare the humanity of 1824 with that of 2024. The differences are far greater than merely religious. Religion may have had considerable impact on the early structure of humanity, but as time goes on religion may, or in some cases may not, greatly decline in influence.
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The oldest hominins are thought to have appeared as early as 7 million B.C.E. The earliest species of the Homo genus appeared around 2 million to 1.5 million B.C.E. Current evidence supports modern Homo sapiens appearing around 190,000 B.C.E.
https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-earth/#:~:text=The oldest hominins are thought,sapiens appearing around 190,000 B.C.E.

How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth? | PRB​

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I don't think we have significantly changed biologically for thousands of years. My great grandparents would have been alive in 1824. I am a great grandparent. 1824 is not that long ago. Our technology has changed and our understanding of science has changed. There are many more people on earth. Religion still has a big impact on us. What were you thinking?
 
I think I am leaning towards a "church" that is available 24/7 in some form not just sunday service? - a community that lives together and shares together and cares together. One day a week is easy peasy - anyone can do that but what about caring for your local community and each other almost 24/7 - some services available in the day for sure but some emergency teams - rotated weekly perhaps that can care for those members of the church who may be sick/disabled/ depressed/suicidal etc etc - the church imo should be a vibrant part of its member community not just for Sunday best??
 
packleader said:
I believe strongly in something that we cannot explain. That “unexplainable” has been transformed into several religions. I also believe that we are made of stardust, and will eventually become again stardust. Those two aspects are not necessarily contradictory.

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church (mostly Jesuits) burned half a million “witches” alive. As Goethe pointed out, “Der schrecklichste aller Schrecken, ist der Mensch in seinem Wahn” (The most terrible of all horrors is man in his madness.) And then think of the 30 years of religious warfare in Europe that established the protestant churches. “Religion” has definitely some ugly aspects to it.

My wife strongly follows the Catholic Church, and I respect it. In fact, we took a number of religious trips to please her, that included Lourdes, Fatima, and Rome where we participated in the general audiences of Pope John Paul in 1970, Pope Benedict in 2010, and Pope Francis in 2016.

During a peaceful period, we travelled to the Holy Land in 1998. One week by rental car all over, and one week in Jerusalem. At the place where Jesus died, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, I as a Lutheran joined my wife in a Catholic Holy Mass because no Lutheran service existed. I am not really religious. Perhaps I am a Christian in name only because it's my heritage. But I am not anti-church. It has its place.

In my view, you have to be objective and keep everything in perspective (and certainly don’t get emotional about the rights and wrongs of the church.) Religion is a personal choice. Please be tolerant and respect each other's choice.

@davey in Ozzieland below: I have three Boxer dogs and used to have four. I am the leader of that pack. Please look at my avatar.
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I really like posts that explain something and cause me to think. A man who will indulge his wife is worth more than his weight in gold.

I never argued religion but Billy Graham led the way to Evangelicals blending their religion with politics and they are so large in number they are the determining political power. This has me very upset!

In the beginning Protestants believed science would better enable us to know God, but around Darwin's time they started turning against science. Protestants dominated and wanted a firm separation of Church and State because the history of Church and State power was so bad! Evangelicals have turned against science and want to control politics.

How can we ignore something this serious?
 


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